Reading Response #4
1) Go back and read the comments posted on "Reading Response #3." Choose a classmate's comment and respond with another comment or a question. My hope is that this will start a dialogue.
2) In response to chapters 7 and 8, please answer the following questions:
a) Why does Holden "almost wish [he] were dead"?
b) Why do presents make Holden sad? In particular, why do the ice skates make him sad?
c) Is Ackley a good friend? Why or why not?
d) Holden lies a great deal in chapter 8. Does his lying make him a phony in yor opinion? Why or why not?
2) In response to chapters 7 and 8, please answer the following questions:
a) Why does Holden "almost wish [he] were dead"?
b) Why do presents make Holden sad? In particular, why do the ice skates make him sad?
c) Is Ackley a good friend? Why or why not?
d) Holden lies a great deal in chapter 8. Does his lying make him a phony in yor opinion? Why or why not?
posted by Mary at 10:20 AM
25 Comments:
Holden almost wishes he was dead because he was thinking about Stradlater and Jane being together and about how everything is going wrong right now. I believe that Ackley is not a good friend because after the fight with Stradlater when Holden woke Ackley up and started talking about the fight, Ackley didn't care and just wanted to go back to bed. A good friend would of stayed up wit Holden and talked to him about the fight. I believe that all the lieing done by Holden does not make him a phony. I believe tht Holden just didn't want this lady to know who he was and about himself and didn't want her to kno that he actually hates her son rather than liks him and is riends iwth him.
I think that when Jay said that Holden doesn't take crap from anybody he made a very good point. He seems to love giving people crap about being phony or being stupid, but he doesn't seem to like it happening to him.
a. I couldn't find the part where he says he almost wishes he was dead.
b. Presents make Holden sad because his mother went to a good deal of trouble and spent some good money for him, and here he was getting kicked out of another school.
c. Ackley is not a good friend. He seems to hate everybody and he never wants to seem like he is doing something for somebody else's benefit.
d. This doesn't make him a phony, it just makes him a liar. If he were a phony, he would be sucking up to everybody and trying to act like something he is not.
Question a) Holden almost wishes he were dead because of how lonley Pencey was. Holden talks about how everything was quiet. Another reason Holden wishes he was dead is because of Stradlater. Jane keeps coming into Holden's mind and the way Stradlater has treated his past girlfriends makes Holden uncomfortable. Since Jane is a childhood friend, it would be awkward for his roommate to go out with her.
Question b) Presents make Holden sad because no one can really please him except for himself. His mom bought him the wrong kind of skates and this makes him sad. He is feeling sorry for himself because it is his fault that he is hard to please and it may be beginning to get to him. The ice skates in particular, make him sad because he can imagine his mom in the store, trying to find the best pair for him, and asking the seller all these questions if they are good or not, and then he ends up not wearing them.
Question c) To Holden, I think that Ackley is a good friend. I think this because, Ackley is someone who Holden can talk to and they seem to relate to each other well, even though Holden won't admit it. Holden, finds himself wanting to tell Ackley good bye during the night. Sometimes Holden needs someone to talk to and maybe Ackley isn't the best option, but its the best Holden will get.
Question d) I think that lying makes Holden a bit of a phony. He does not tell Morrow's mom the truth about anything, and just acts like its all true. I must admit, Holden is a great liar but he does not use his skills in the right way.
I have to say, from reading response 3 I have to agree with Jay. jay states that we find out that Holden has a temper in which he can be provoked and when he is, you really don't wanna mess with him. Stradlater happeed to be much stronger that him but he could definetly put up a fight if he was up against someone his own size. Kind of like Jim.
Holden almost wishes he were dead because he feel lonesome at Pencey and is upset about jane and Stradlater. Holden's ice skates make him sad because one his mother got the present wrong (they are always wrong, and they were the wrong type of skates) and the other was it remindes him of his family and friends and even though he has relationships with people he is often alone or lonesome. Ackley has got to be the worst friend alive. He is inconsiderate(scissors incident), he swears at Holden almost all the time, and he is overall a slob. Holden's lying makes him a phony but in a different way then Holden feels a phony is. He is a phony because he is generally not honest, there for he is constantly missrepresenting himself. Holden's idea of a phony is someone who lies to fit in or to just sort of look like an all around great guy but Holden does it because he's bored or he doesn't want to let anyone in.
Presents make Holden sad because he thinks that he does not deserve them. With the ice skates that his mom gave him for Christmas, Holden liked that his mom was trying to give him a great present (he want speed skates not hokey) but since he got kicked out and has not even tried on the skates, he hates presents in that way. Ackley is not a good friend but it’s all the friend that Holden has. Ackley makes fun of Holden and almost ignores him when Holden asks him a question. Holden would be a very good friend to Ackley, even though Ackley is very annoying, Holden does not show that very much about Ackley. In my opinion Holden lying so much does not affect the way I think of him that much. When he lies he does it out of boredom and to make a story almost. So far he has not lied about anything big that maters in his life.
1) Quintus how does this quote tell us about Holden? I don't see the connection.
2)Holden almost wishes he was dead because of the incidents that happened in chapter seven and eight.(Inviting himself to ackey's room ect.)I don't think that ackley is a good friend. I say this because ackley din't invite Holden to his room or let him sleep in his room. Holden invited himself. Right now in the book it looks like Holden is turning out to be the biggest phony so far. From his view of phony someone who is phony lies alot to please other people. Holden does this all the time.
Holden wishes he were dead because he felt awful about his unused ice skates. Holden said that he could imagine his mom asking all these odd questions in order to get the skates. He probably doesn't like gifts, because he usually doesn't use them or care enough about them, and doesn't like thinking about how the person must feel about giving him the gift.
Ackley sseems like an alright friend. He doesn't have deep friend-type values, meaning he won't stand up for you or do you a big favor, but he seems like the kind of guy that cares about you, under his gross and grody self. Holden lies a lot in Chapter 8. What he did was his definition of a phony, but in this case, or at least under his "rules", he was lying to someone he will probably never meet again. becuase this won't ever affect him, he might as well shoot the bull.
Holden wishes he were dead because he is lonesome. Through his actions, he realizes how little he has, and that is beginning to hurt him.
Holden feels guilty getting gifts because he feels like he doesn't deserve them, which makes him feel like a hypocrite. And the last thing he wants to be is a "phonie". He feels especially guilty with the iceskates because there was extra thought put into the gift.
I'm not certain whether Ackley is a good friend or not. On one hand, Ackley seems a bit hostile to Holden, especially at night. However, Ackley is curious and interested in the lives of the people he intrudes on, and seems like a person who would be loyal.
Despite being a compulsive lyer, I don't think Holden would be considered a "phonie". Holden doesn't tells the truth becuase he feel like he has to. Therefore, Holden must, in someways, lie, which makes him the opposite of a phonie.
In response to Henry's comment....
I like what Henry said about Holden not being in a particulare group, in a classic sense I highly agree with him, but virtually, he seems to belonge to a bigger group, philosiphers,
When reading the book, Holden notes and thinks about many things around him, he leads himself by his feelings, and basicly belives that all his ideas are correct. If we cross the line of character to author, we see that J.D. himself is a very intelligent, thoughtful being...then why was his IQ so low that he was close to being legally handicaped? Simply because he follows his own ideals, math, history, science and english itself are not discoveries but inventions, inventions we must work and learn how to use...so the question really is, if we cannot work these ideas, other peoples ideas, does that make us dumb? Does that make us Handicaped? J.D's book itself is simple, the vocabulary does not extend farther then a 5th graders, but it does pick at the readers mind. Holden is not in a physical group, and he never will be, because he has such a brilliant mind that the people that run around using orther peoples ideas disgust him, human stupidity disgusts him, and our meaningless, thoughtless, workfull acadimic program disgusts him the most. J.D./Holden has a differant thinking proccess, and in his own way, he's his own group, his own genious....
Holden almost wishes he were dead because he's starting to relize, slowly, how his future is turning out, and how lonely he is. He feels alone because there is no one to discuss his thoughts with....
when Holden lies I do not think he is phony, he is lying, phony people want somthing, sympathy or honor, they want people attention cheaply bought with a mask, when Holden lies it just comes to him, he lies with his stories...phony people lie in their personality.
Holden "almost" wishes he were dead when he's visiting Ackley because he is lonely, even Ackley is not really that close a friend, and he's worried about Jane. Givers of presents try so hard to give presents but they don't always reflect what he wants. The ice skates made him particularly sad because his mom went to all the trouble of getting him skates, and they were the wrong kind and he was getting the axe anyway which was going to disappoint her.
Ackley would be a good friend because he listens, he listens well, but Holden doesn't really have friends because he doesn't really tell the truth.
Holden lies to give people what they want to hear. He also lies to avoid having confrontations. He is basically a nice guy who lies in self-defense, which makes a lot of his responses totally phony.
when Quintus said maybe the other fight he lost was the one to keep his brother alive.
I thought what Quintus said was intresting and that the idea that the other fight was to keep his brother alive could be a big possibility. I agree with this statement.
a) Holden wishes he were almost dead for many reason. He is now afraid of what his parents will do, upset he didn’t talk to Jane, and wanting to get out of his dorm.
b) The ice skates make him sad because his mom gave them to him and everytime his mom gives him something it makes him sad because he isnt doing well at school and he doesn’t like to dsapoint her.
c) Ackley is not a good friend because he is not being supportive of Holden or his ideas and thoughts.
d) I think that Holdens lieing shows that he does not care what other people think of him. In some ways I think he was lieing to please the mother of his classmate and not just for fun. This shows he wants her snd other people to be happy but he does not neccisarily have to lie about it.
Holden wished he was dead because he felt very lonesome, all of the sudden. He was depressed because he could see his mother in his mind going in Spaulding's and asking salesmen a lot of questions. His mother bought him the wrong kind of skates. He wanted racing skates and she bought hockey ones instead. I think when Holden lies in chapter eight it makes him a phony, especially when the lady asked his name and he said that his name was Rudolf Schmidt. Holden wasn't telling the truth about who he really was.
1. I have to agree with Alice. The way Holden describes his brother Allie’s death, and Holden’s feelings about it, truly tells us about his character. It shows us that there is something that Holden can be serious about, and it shows a sort of affectionate side of him. Maybe he is depressed because of Allie.
2. Holden’s ice skates make him sad because they remind him of his parents and how they really don’t want him to mess up [again], and the skates were motivation to not screw up, and yet, he messed up. He knows they’ll be disappointed in him. Ackley is not a good friend because he is rude, he overstays his welcome (even though he isn’t always welcome), and he ignores the wishes of his friends. He also doesn’t respect them. Lying makes someone phony because it shows that he doesn’t think much of himself, so he has to lie about things just to prove that others think he’s good enough.
Holden wished he was dead because he couldn’t protect Jane from Stradlters advances on her date with Stradlater. The presents make Holden melancholy because he didn’t receive what he wanted. He contemplated how much time and effort it took his mother to go shopping for some racing skates that he wanted and then buy the wrong skates after he told her he wanted racing skates. Holden doesn’t consider Ackley a good friend because he doesn’t tell him any thing about his personal life. Holden is a phony in my opinion because e he makes up stories for order that other people think will of him. He also makes up stories to hide his embarrassment from being expelled from school, because he doesn’t to explain why he failed school.
Holden almost wishes he were dead because he's had a tough time at Pencey. He's just gotten into a fight with Stradlater, and it depresses him to have to stay in the same room with him, knowing that he's also going out with one of his friends, Jane. Presents, like the hockey skates, make Holden sad because they remind him of who the giver was, his mother. His mom gave him the skates in the past week, and he feels sad because after she's treated him to such a nice gift, he has to go and tell her that he's been expelled again.
Although Ackley's nextdoor to Holden's room at Pencey, he isn't a very good friend. He's not supporive, and he seems to be focused mainly on himself. Plus, he goes through others' private belongings!
In chapter 8, when Holden lies a lot, it makes him look like a most very insecure person. The only reasons that he would be lying like that would be because 1) He doesn't want to hurt this woman's feelings about how he feels towards Ernest, and 2) He feels that he needs to get out of his past reputation, and start anew, as he said about the New York trip. He would be well rested for when he sees his parents.
A)Holden wishes that he is almost dead because he was thinking about his life. He was thinking about how Jane might not even remember him. He was also thinking about Stradlater and how he is better with woman than him. About how Stradlaters technique to get woman to sleep with him.
B) Presents make Holden sad because it seems that every time he gets them the present ends up making him sad. The ice skates make him especially sad because he could tell that his mom asked a million questions about them and Holden got them just a couple of days before he got kicked out. He could tell his mom spent so much time looking for them and that made him very sad.
C) Ackley Kid is a very good friend. One example is that when Holden asked him if he could sleep in Ely's bed Ackley kid didn’t want Holden to because it would be rude to Ely if Ackley just let people sleep in his bed while he was gone. Also Ackley always was there to talk to. Holden went into his room late at night and Ackley talked with him a little.
D)I think him lying does not make him a phony. Most of the stuff he lied about was to make Ernest’s mom feel good about her son and make him seem like a good student.
I think that holden almost wishes he were dead because he is depressed. When you really think about it he is good at absolutley nothing and tries at absolutley nothing. When I first red this the first person that came into my mind, was Peter LaFleur. To qoute my good friend Peter: "If you have a goal, you might not reach it. But if you don't have one, then you are never disappointed." I think that that is also the way holden looks at life whether its on purpose or not.
Ackley is not a good friend. If at school, and you only have one friend, and it just happens to be ackley, then you probably should be depressed, I know I would be. Ackley needs to stop acting like a kindergartener if he wants to make any real friends, and not just ones that don't have anybody else to talk to. Holden does have mal brousard, so he is not a total loss, that is probably why holden almost wishes he were dead, if Ackley kid were all he had, I don't think Holden could stand it. Even his roomate who is friendly beat him up.
I think that it does make Holden a phony. He is spending all of his time critasizing phonies, when he is the one lying. Phonies dont even lie sometimes, they embellish. Holden lies.
Holden wishes he were dead because, as he's said before, he doesn't like fighting. Appraently he thinks of himself as a pacifist. Something seems to nag on him with the whole Jane thing and he can't let it go.Although alot of things seem to nag on him. Presents make Holden feel sad because every time he leaves a school, he feels as though he's dissapointing them. The ice skates were brand new and Holden recald thinking about his mother buying them for him , and it makes him fell really giulty. Presents are the symbol of love that his parents are offering him, and he's letting them down by getting into so much trouble and flunking all the time. Ackley, I think, could be a good friend but doesn't know how to. The book says he doesn't have many firends, and it's true he can't relate to Holden. Who picks their fingernails while barging into someone dorm? Or who comes into a dorm without asking and staying for gobs of time while someone is trying to study? Ackley has never had a friend to know how to be a friend.
For me, the definition of a phony is someone that isn't sincere. I don't think Holden is a phony, but he isn't sincere. The reason he isn't sincere is because he's surrounded by phonies. He isn't truthful in public, bu talone he shares his feelings somewhat openly. Holden, in my opinion, has been surrounded by phonies so long that he thinks has to act like one to fit in.
In response to Colin's. Interesting Idea I think that you are right about both things not only is Stradlater going out with his friend Jane but with his reputation who knows what will happen.
In chapters 7 and 8 many importortant things happen. Holden almost wishes he were dead because of everything that had happened to him. Stradlater had gone out with Jane which definitley effected Holden and then Stradlater and Holden got into a little fight. He feels like he could just vanish off the earth without being noticed. Presents make Holden sad because he feels whenever he gets them they are something he does not want. With the skates he got the wrong kind he had wanted racing but his mother got him hockey skates. Even though Holden would not admit it Ackley is actually a good friend to Holden because he is there for Holden and listens to him. Yes Holden's lieing makes him a phony. If you pretend to be another person you are definitley a phony hands down.
In response to Colin's. Interesting Idea I think that you are right about both things not only is Stradlater going out with his friend Jane but with his reputation who knows what will happen.
In chapters 7 and 8 many importortant things happen. Holden almost wishes he were dead because of everything that had happened to him. Stradlater had gone out with Jane which definitley effected Holden and then Stradlater and Holden got into a little fight. He feels like he could just vanish off the earth without being noticed. Presents make Holden sad because he feels whenever he gets them they are something he does not want. With the skates he got the wrong kind he had wanted racing but his mother got him hockey skates. Even though Holden would not admit it Ackley is actually a good friend to Holden because he is there for Holden and listens to him. Yes Holden's lieing makes him a phony. If you pretend to be another person you are definitley a phony hands down.
Holden almost wishes he were dead because of the loneliness. Stradlater was on a date and all he had for company was Ackley Kid. Ackley kid that night was being a good friend though. When he saw that Holden had been beaten up he showed genuine concern for him. Also when Holden asked to sleep in his roommate’s bed he said no thinking of his roommate’s wishes.
The presents make him sad because he feels he does not deserve them. His mom sends him a nice gift and he gets himself kicked out.
Holden lies to hide his discomfort with his situation. He lies to a mom whos son goes to Pencey, so she does not immediately think badly of him. Lying helps him avoid his problems.
2a)I didn't saw a quotation like that..
2b)Maybe beacuse he thinks he isn't worth it, he doesn't say something about that, but maybe he feels so in his deep down.
2c)Ackley isn't a good friends, beacuse he just doesn't care if Holden is sad about the Jane-thing. He's selfish.
2d)I don't thinks he's phony for that, he just doesn't manage to tell Ernests mom that he got expelld
A) Holden almost wishes he was dead because he was lonely. Holden now has noone to talk to. Ackley is being annoying, Stradlater had just broken on of Holden's best friend's innocence, and there was no one to make him feel better. If I were him, I would feel the same way.
B)Holden does not like gifts because they make him depressed. Every gift he gets is dissapointing to him and it makes him feel guilty. Not only do gifts make him fell guilty but when he doesn't like a gift he's not going to want to use it and if he doesn't he'll get questioned for it
c) Ackley is not a good friend. Ackley did not even let Holden sleep in his room let alone try in the least to make him feel better when he knows Holden was probably upset. The only time Ackley gets excited is when he hears that the fight was about him (when it wasn't).
D) I do not think Holden is a phony. I think Holden is afraid to say what he thinks because if he did, people might get to know him and run away from him. At least this is what he thinks. Holden also probably has low self esteem and likes getting attention. Holden probably has many emotional problems and this is how he makes up for it... by disguising himself
As a comment towards Megan, Alice an all others who wrote about Allie, Holden's late brother, in Reading Response #3, it is smart to show Holden's relatives in your writing. All we readers have mainly heard about were his classmates, and since his important brother showed up, you guys made good use of him. GOOD JOB!
In response to Jordan
I have to disagree with Jordan. I don't think Holden has anything to do with the rest of the world.He practically spends most of his time talking about other people. If he didn't care about other people he wouldn't talk about them. I think he cares a great deal, because he seems to feel alone in the world. He feels lost and without love. He also spends most of his time seeking out other people to talk to because he is lonly.
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